Tags : :
by Meleti Vivlon, and my response to it. I do this because I have my doubts that my response will make it through his moderation.
He was responding to what I have written at (http://4womaninthewilderness.blogspot.com/2014/11/generation.html)
You state that a generation “does not speak of a time, it speaks of a result.” Yet, further on you show that time is involved because all these things must occur before the generation passes away. This is a contradiction which you fail to resolve. You also include elements in “all these things” (such as the wheat and weeds) which are not part of the context of Matthew 24, but fail to show Scriptural support for including them. You also state that “the Greek of “generation” is actually speaking of something which spirit generates, or creates.” Sometimes yes and often no. It has several meaning and the scriptures you site prove that, but you ignore all but the meaning that suits your interpretation. This is eisegesis and it has not validity here. Additionally, and this is the biggest hole in your arguments, you fail to show how either of the two generations you speak of pass away before all these things occur. The thing is if we accept your two millennia-spanning generations, then you have to acknowledge that they both survive until after the 1,000 years have ended, which is way outside of all the things Jesus was referring to when speaking to his disciples."
I wish to respond to your comments...
"further on you show that time is involved because all these things must occur before the generation passes away."
Does not every occurrence require time? The passing of time alone does not result in discernment (Matt.24:34).
Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
To be more precise about what the scriptures (and I) assert, is that the generation will not pass away, until all things occur.
This means that the power of the holy ones will not disappear, until all things prophesied about them, are fulfilled. Although this sequence, naturally occurs in the context of time, we learn more about Matt.24:34 if we uncover what has been prophesied about them that will be fulfilled before their demise. If we are able to recognize that fulfillment and demise, we certainly are in a better position to recognize the "sign" of Christ's parousia, and when it is being fulfilled.
Again... that "timing" is not given as a date, but as a situation and sequence of events. Therefore, they are recognized, not by a timepiece, but by events, or, causes and subsequent results, regardless of the date (Dan.12:8).
Jesus described the timing as a "season".
Accordingly, it would be recognize by a sequence of events (Matt.24:32-33). I made this point, because Jesus himself advises this key to discernment is recognizing cause and effect as it unfolds. Therefore, those are the things I have emphasized when teaching this subject. I don't discern the contradiction you refer to. Time can be involved when *conditions arrive, or when prophecy is *fulfilled, without the central teaching point of Christ's words, as being about a calendar or clock. I did not say that all element of time stands still (absurd), but rather, that if we focus on the details of cause and effect, conditions and circumstances which Jesus described in Matt.24:34, we are better enabled to discern the lesson, his presence, as well as the conclusion of the age (Dan.12:6).
The conclusion of the age is described in many parables and prophecies. Since they all are true descriptions of the same culmination, they belong together to created the whole. They all contribute to a full picture.
The "kingdom of the heavens" was also described in many parables and prophecies by Jesus (Matt.13). Though they all seem unrelated, are they? Is each parable and prophecy regarding a different kingdom? No. Each lesson contributes to a fuller understanding of the one kingdom.
How well would we recognize a person we never met, if we were only told their hair color? If their height were also provided, that would help. If eye color and weight were added, even better. What if clothing and location were added? And finally, if we were told what activity they were engaged in, and what their circumstances were, we may very well recognize them at first glance.
The two generations (righteous, and wicked) which Jesus refers to, are not missing from the rest of the Bible.
If we believed that the only valid clue to our missing person was their eye color, we would not do well recognizing them in a crowd. We must combine all our available information if we hope to visualize fully. If we hope to "discern the hour", we too must not compartmentalize all the prophecies pertaining to it.
Do you not recognize the "wheat" as righteous, and the "weeds" as rejected?
Do you not recognize that just as the "generation" exists until the end, the wheat and weeds are present at the end? (Matt.13:30; Matt.13:39; Matt.24:3; Matt.24:34)
Why do you believe that the "generation" given relevant importance by Jesus, must be unrelated to their contemporary "wheat" and "weeds", which are obviously also the central figures of end-time prophecy? What scripture convinces you, that these two groups are unrelated?
Jesus himself tells us, that the wheat are sons of the kingdom (Ps.14:5; Matt.13:43; Rom.8:17; Ps.37:29), and the weeds are sons of the wicked one (Matt.13:38; Matt.13:40; Matt.23:33; Matt.13:42; 2Pet.3:7)... the "generation", or offshoot of the devil. That "generation" will keep seeking to see the sign we discuss, but will not be enabled (Luke11:29). While speaking of the wheat and weeds, Jesus also spoke of those who fail to discern the meaning of the signs and symbols Jesus used (Matt.13:14; Matt.13:11).
Who, besides these two groups ("wheat" and "weeds"), do you believe the end-time "generation" consists of? (Please provide a scripture.)
Jesus claimed that there are those who are graced with understanding all his prophecies and parables (Matt.13:11; Dan.12:10; Dan.12:3; Matt.13:43; Phil.2:15; Rev.1:20). Would they not then be enabled to integrate them as they relate to one another.... just as the pieces of a puzzle contribute to a clear, full, and detailed image?
Just as you refer to previously written material to back up your assertions, I also have written extensively about these things, and like you, cannot repeat everything each time I touch upon a related subject. Much has been written about the "wheat" and "weeds", and how this parable relates to the rest of the conclusion of the age, not only by me, but by others. If interested, feel free to use the search box at my Blog.
I would be interested in having the scriptures that indicate that "generation" is "often" used in the Bible, to define something other than what is generated.
"Additionally, and this is the biggest hole in your arguments, you fail to show how either of the two generations you speak of pass away before all these things occur."
Again, that may seem to be equal to what i said, but it is not.
The generation will N O T pass away, UNTIL all things are DONE occurring (Matt.24:34). You are stating the opposite.
They will exist, until all prophecy about them, is fulfilled.
Yet the presence of the faithful, goes largely unrecognized (Matt.25:37-29,44; Heb.13:2; 12:22)
If you discern the "generation" passing away (and their "power, coming to nothing" (Dan.12:7 B; Luke 21:24; Rev.13:7; 11:7; Dan.7:25; Dan.8:24) (AND you have not discerned the genuine fulfillment of what was prophesied about them), then you failed to discern the last hour, Christ's inspection, or the full accomplishment of God's requirements for the end to arrive (Ps.110:1-2).
Lastly, you say;
"The thing is if we accept your two millennia-spanning generations, then you have to acknowledge that they both survive until after the 1,000 years have ended, which is way outside of all the things Jesus was referring to when speaking to his disciples."
I don't know what scriptures guide you to believe that the wicked and righteous do not exist after the end of the "thousand years",
but perhaps you can contemplate Rev.20:7-9, as follows;
"7 When the thousand years **are over**, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth **and surrounded the camp of God’s people**, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them."
Also, I never said that the two generations (righteous/ wicked--wheat/weeds) have existed for the past two thousand millennia.
The scriptures I gave in the previous post, asserted that they have existed since Eden.
Last Edited By: Pearl Doxsey Oct 17 15 7:32 PM. Edited 3 times