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Jan 13 14 2:36 PM

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 One of the scriptures that most of us would have committed to memory via the Watchtower was Romans 15:4 "for whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that through endurance and through the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope."

 In thinking back to an illustration that I used in a Public Talk, back when they were 45 minutes long, was that the "new system" was like looking at it through a new window where everything is crystal clear, but over time can become a little less clear and eventually far away from us and not even a part of the landscape anymore if we don't keep up with cleaning that window on a regular basis. All we end up seeing is what's right there in front of us and of course it’s endurance through encouraging scriptural understanding that keeps the window clean and the hope alive.

 This was all well and good, but in time knowing now the corruption of that spiritual feeding program, I would say has had the effect of boarding up that window. We may try and clean the window, but it's to no avail if it's boarded up. I can honestly say that my 37 years starting with 1975 and proceeding through the "new light" on generation, which from one source (JW Facts) has changed five times since the 80's has continually dampened that hope of the many, including myself over that time period. Finding out that according to the July 2013 Watchtower the understanding the organization had and held out as hope was changing again and really, to me, turned into an emotional roller coaster ride. I don't think it a stretch to believe many others felt the same way.

  What got me thinking about hope was an extremely popular quote from the recent blockbuster movie Hunger Games where the villain says that "hope is more powerful than fear". I remember thinking that scripturally speaking, hope is very powerful, but not sure if that's how the Bible would describe it. John says that it's really "love that casts fear outside" 1 John 4:18, so I guess they were close, but no cigar,...lol.

 I was reflecting on myself and wondering if any of the indoctrination and numerous "disappointments" stemming from the WTS may have altered my appreciation of the hope we are looking forward to. Also faith and love are specifically mentioned as "fruits of the spirit", but not hope. So to me, hope is something that we have to cultivate in conjunction with other attributes, but still an integral part of the big three: 1 Corinthians 13:13
 "And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love." I also appreciate the sentiment of Paul at: Romans 8:24-25 "For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience."

=10pt Understanding the spiritual fulfillment of the scriptures concerning "the great tribulation" and "Armageddon" and that the coming of the kingdom would not be noticed: Luke 17:20-23  “Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.” Then he said to his disciples, “The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. People will tell you, ‘There he is!’ or ‘Here he is!’ Do not go running off after them.

=10pt =12ptIt would seem patience is in order and we can be thankful that we're no longer "running after them" like those we used to be associated with. It's such a huge weight lifted to no longer be so preoccupied with dates, but focus on Godly wisdom and everything will take care of itself,...Proverbs 24:14 “Know that wisdom is such to your soul; if you find it, there will be a future, and your hope will not be cut off.” 
  On the "flipside", it seems to me that the WTS Hope roller coaster has been taken out of storage and been fired up again. The November Watchtower, which is being studied now, has them in eager anticipation of an important phase and possibly the "great tribulation". I don't have access to the KH phone hook-up, so I don't know for sure what direction they're getting from the "Mother Ship", since the Watchtower indicated more correspondence in this regard and an elevated role for the elders in all of this. Not being ignorant of Satan's designs, it's probably the same old,...same old, but wouldn't hurt to know if there are any new lies being told. The "Eight Dukes" were an interesting twist,....no pun intended,....well actually it was.

 I'd like to leave this post on the positive, so in keeping with the writings of Paul to the Romans end with this:


Romans 15:13  May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope[highlight=white].[/highlight]

=10ptChristian Love,
Ryan

BTW, sorry about the struggle with all the font sizes,...tried to copy some scriptures and paste them, but couldn't get them to adapt like I had hoped. sorry,....can't help myself,...lol
OK,…took this over to Microsoft Word and got some of the bugs worked out of it.
=11pt
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Jan 20 14 3:01 PM

  Tell Obadiah thanks and I enjoyed his thoughts and insights immensely and so glad he came through OK. I guilted my wife into giving me the password for the KH phone hook-up yesterday and after getting my gag reflex under control, was even more nausiated when it went unnoticed about the "seven" shepherds as pertaining to those with an earthly hope when anyone even remotely associated with the WTS knows that they believe the number 7 relates to things of a heavenly nature. Proof once again very, very few really care about the "truth" and they will continue to follow the blind man until they both end up in the pit.

 I used to feel like I was rescuing puppies from a shelter, where their fate was predetermined, but see a totally different demeanor and struggling to find the proper empathy for those choosing to keep the mark of the beast. My own wife commented on the very same paragraph your husband referred to in his article and she knew I was listening! I hold out very little hope for her, but will continue to pray for my kids. On the bright side, I have renewed my relationship with my sister and can talk freely about the wonderful things I have learned and have definite plans on reuniting with my three nieces who left about 13 years ago!.

Thanks again for the heads*up ,
Ryan 

 

Last Edited By: Pearl Doxsey Jan 21 14 9:58 AM. Edited 1 time.

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Jan 31 14 4:22 PM

Hi sis. Pearl & bro. Obadiah,



Thank you for your upholding the truth.
How refreshing it is!



I'll follow scriptural instructions that you brought about shown below.

Pr 18:2 (NWT)
2 Anyone stupid finds no delight in discernment, except that his heart should uncover itself.
(NIV)
2 A fool finds no pleasure in understanding but delights in airing his own opinions.


Mt 10:14
14 Wherever anyone does not take YOU in or listen to YOUR words, on going out of that house or that city shake the dust off YOUR feet.

Mr 6:11
11 And wherever a place will not receive YOU nor hear YOU, on going out from there shake off the dirt that is beneath YOUR feet for a witness to them."

Lu 10:11
11 'Even the dust that got stuck to our feet from YOUR city we wipe off against YOU.

Ac 13:51-52
51 These shook the dust off their feet against them and went to I·co′ni·um. 52 And the disciples continued to be filled with joy and holy spirit.

Ac 18:6
6 But after they kept on opposing and speaking abusively, he shook out his garments and said to them: "Let YOUR blood be upon YOUR own heads. I am clean. From now on I will go to people of the nations."





As you notice, in the other public forum I'm dealing with elementary things of the truth like demons, angels, of whom some have their own version of interpretation deviating from sound understanding of what they are.

I hope someone can get corrected in understanding of the matter from my witness there, since it is a commission entrusted to the sons of the kingdom to give a through witness to the truth.


I view both of you as the sons of the kingdom, and I hard you view Christ's thousand years reign has already begun since the first century. I want to hear from you in what sense you are saying that.


I know Christ already received the crown from our Father when he returned to the heaven.

Da 7:13-14
13 "I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see there! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. 14 And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin.

Mt 28:18
18 And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: "All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.

What Jesus has been waiting for is to execute judgment upon Satan's world.
Then after disappearing the old heaven and old earth, the new era of Christ's thousand years reign will begin for redeemed mankind with abundant blessings.

This is what I believe and am satisfied with that hope.

I appreciate to hear your scriptural reasoning on this issue.


Have a good day,


see ya image

Last Edited By: okinawa Jan 31 14 4:31 PM. Edited 1 time.

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#3 [url]

Jan 31 14 6:46 PM

Hello Okinawa,
The covenant Jesus made for a kingdom with his priests and kings, have two sets of scriptures related to them.
Some speak of them sitting on thrones to judge (Luke22:29; Rev.20:4; John20:23).
This judging must take place before all have already been judged. The judgment includes Satan and his helpers (Rev.20:10; John1:12; Luke10:17,18,19,20; 2Cor.10:4,5)
Christ rules UNTIL his enemies are judged (1Cor.15:24-26). At that point....after all have been judged and even death has been conquered for all his brothers (1Cor.15:26,54-58; Rev.21:4)...
there is no more reason for Satan to be set free to cause more deception, sin, and death...both of which would be Christs' enemies returned.

1Cor.15:24 tells us that after Christ has brought to nothing all power, government and authority not of God (Eph.6:12; Rev.12:10,11) by means of the faithful warring along with Christ (Rev.17:14; 19:11,14);
Christ hands over his completed thousand year kingdom, to God...after he has completely conquered all enemies, which is the purpose of his "thousand year" kingdom (Ps.110:1,2,3).
A thousand years is a limited time. Not so God's kingdom, that lasts forever. It begins AFTER all enemies of truth and life are judged by Christ and his faithful brothers.

We are told that when Jesus arrives, the judgment is passed then, and it is permanent (Matt.25:31,32,46). This is a part of enemies being removed, which judgment is final.
The members of the administration being gathered, which will be used by God in His own eternal kingdom, are only assigned over "a little" while Christ reigns.
If they prove faithful with this limited authority; then they will be entrusted with eternity.
Luke16:10-12 reads:
"10 He who is faithful in what is least is faithful also in much; and he who is unjust in what is least is unjust also in much. 11 Therefore if you have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches? 12 And if you have not been faithful in what is another man’s, who will give you what is your own?"

If we are not faithful with our Masters belongings (Matt.25:23); why should we inherit the earth and all creation upon it (Gen.28:13,14; Gal.3:29)?

Christ's Thousand Year kingdom ends, when he hands creation's dominion over to God. This is when his enemies are done away with, at the "end" of Satan's world (1Cor.15:24,25).
I hope that you can read all these scriptures, and while you do, you leave behind what you have thought before, and only let the Bible speak to you.

We have learned many things inside the WT which are not true. Jesus told us to remember the wife of Lot. (Luke17:31-33) She looked back at what she was leaving behind and lost her life.
We do not want to look back at the deceptions we learned at the table of demons (Rev.16:13,14,15; 1Cor.10:21) when we flee the wicked City (Rev.18:4; Matt.24:15,16).
We cannot put new wine in old wineskins (Matt.9:17; John16:12,13).
We must now purify ourselves to learn from the voice of Christ (2Cor.11:3; Col.2:8; Rev.13:10,7; 2Pet.3:13; Rev.14:5).
which we will find within the scriptures. This is the reason we must buy from him, refined gold (Rev.3:18) and why he must purify his priests upon his return (Mal.2:1,2; 3:1-4)

Jesus did begin ruling as a king when he was on earth (Matt.21:5; Matt.26:64; 28:18; Psalm110:1; 1Cor.15:25; Acts2:33;7:55,56).
Rev20:6 tells us that the faithful sealed chosen rule with Christ in his kingdom which his father made a covenant with him for (Ps.110:1,2,3)..
The glory of Christ's rule was grace and truth (John18:37,36; 1:14,17; 2:11), not a worldly, visible glory.
The faithful chosen share in this kingdom authority (John1:12; Luke10:17,18,19,20; 2Cor.10:4,5; Matt.16:19; 18:18; John20:23; ) and they have already received of the "coming to life" of the "first resurrection"---
(John1:4,12,13; 11:26; 5:24,25,28; Luke1:79; Eph.5:8; Isa.9:2; Rom.8:9,10,11,13,14,16; 1John3:14; Matt.4:16; John10:9,10; 4:23,36; 6:47,50,51) while they prove faithful to truth during their earthly life.
We remember that spirit is not seen. When Christ was raised as spirit (1Pet.3:18), it was not his spirit which Thomas touched, but a physical body. Both can exist, yet only one is seen with physical eyes.

Rev.20:6 reads
"Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years."

God has justified the faithful (Rom.8:33). Sin and death have been removed through Christ's blood, applied to those willing to die for truth (Rev.12:10,11; 6:9-11; 7:14; 22:14).
These "have passed from death to life", and the second death has no authority over them already.(John5:24; 1John3:14; Rom.8:33)
The scriptures help us to see the role of these priests (Mal.2:7) who are to render sacred service day and night in the temple. This service is due NOW. They are priests now, as they fulfill their assignment in the body of Christ now.
The final judgment is at Armageddon. At the "end", those invited will also run out of time to prove faithful for life (Matt.25:10-13; 22:8) and for permanent installation as kings in God's future Kingdom.
After God's slaves serve, and they are either accepted or rejected by others who hear them.... God renders His judgment, God's eternal Kingdom ensues. God is already making an estimate of hearts, even among those in the world during each person's lifetime (1Cor.5:12,13). God reads hearts (Prov.17:3).
He does not need to let Gog and Magog run amok within His kingdom, in order to re-evaluate these ones. Gog and Magog are already unleashed, and just as Jerusalem was surrounded by the Romans,
these surround the camp of the Holy Ones, who must be on earth for this to be done (Rev.20:7-9). He is already misleading those against the faithful (Rev.12:9; 2Thess.2:3-12). When Christ finishes subduing his enemies, they are forever subdued. The fire which comes down out of heaven, are God's final judgment against these, through His prophets (Jer.5:14; 23:29; Hosea6:5; Rev.11:5; 2:26,27; 12:5; Col.3:1; Eph.2:6)

I do not ask you to accept my word, but I hope an unbiased examination of the scriptures here can open up a new possibility for you to consider.
I am sorry that the discussion is not more thorough with more of the scriptures, but I am limited at this time. Obe has had surgery and is in pain, and unable to live normally during this time.
I also was told that I need spine surgery, but must care for Obe, so I am not able to do as much as I wish for you.
I hope to write more about the scriptural proof of when the Thousand Years takes place, and it's distinction as separate from God's everlasting Kingdom,
which will begin after His final judgment, and be free of all God's enemies forever.

Satan is restrained during the reign of Christ and the faithful because Satan cannot deceive the faithful if they remain in union with Christ. This does not prevent him misleading the rest of the world under his dominion, and any anointed who leave subjection to Christ. All of Revelation is symbolic.
Satan's restriction and Christ's kingdom are during the same Thousand Years. (Rev.20:6,1; Matt.28:18); This is the same period when Christ's enemies still need to be subdued.
Those enemies are active during Christ's reign, until they are subdued by means of the truth of God's Word. Yet Christ's enemies who are not yet totally subdued, are restricted from misleading the faithful.
Isa.54:17; Luke21:15; 10:19,18,20
"inhabited earth" symbol in Revelation, is literally Greek= "being homed" as in John14:23.and 1Cor.3:16.
Please compare Rev.20:8 to Rev.16:14.
If any questions come to mind, please submit them, if you like, on the Main page of 4woman blog. 

God bless your search for His precious treasures of Truth,
Pearl

PS.  Here is another scripture to consider:
"For he has rescued us from the kingdom of darkness and transferred us into the Kingdom of his dear Son" (Col.1:13)
Can you see from this scripture when it is that the faithful enter Christ's kingdom?


 

Last Edited By: Pearl Doxsey Feb 1 14 8:41 AM. Edited 7 times.

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Feb 2 14 12:25 AM

Thank you for your reply.


There is no such a covenant for a kingdom with Jesus' disciple in the Bible.
It is due to the faulty translation of the NWT.

Lu 22:29-30 (NWT)
29 and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30 that YOU may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel.

(KJV)
29 And I appoint (diatithēmi) unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;

(NIV)
And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me,

(ESV)
and I assign to you, as my Father assigned to me, a kingdom,

 

The Two Covenants? http://www.2001translation.com/New_Covenant.html#_14

It becomes obvious that the New covenant and Jesus' promise of a Kingdom are two different things. For, most Bible translators have taken two different Greek words and translated them both as covenant. For example; at Luke 22:20, the Greek word used there is diatheke, which suggests a will that is left by a person who is about to die… it is a disposition of property… a last will and testament. And this was what Jesus was going to leave for his faithful followers (Spiritual IsraElites) at his death, so that we can come into a relationship with God. However, since we humans can't negotiate with God, this New Sacred Agreement requires Jesus to serve as the go-between or mediator between us and God, just as Moses was the mediator between IsraEl and God when it came to the Old covenant.

Then notice that (in verse 29) the Greek word which other Bibles translate as covenant, is diatithemai. This means to make a promise. And since it was a promise that Jesus made directly with his Apostles, it needs no mediator! Also notice that; If the first Agreement had included the hope of ruling as a king in the heavens, the second agreement would have been totally unnecessary!






Lu 22:20
20 Also, the cup in the same way after they had the evening meal, he saying: "This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood, which is to be poured out in YOUR behalf.

Lu 22:29-30
29 So, I'm giving this appointment (promise) to you
(As my Father has given the appointment to me)
To [be over] a Kingdom.

30 'In my Kingdom, you'll eat and drink at my table,
And you will sit upon thrones,
Where you'll judge the twelve tribes of IsraEl.


The covenant needs a mediator, but the promise is no need a mediator.
Jesus is the mediator of the New covenant, by him all redeemed mankind including the sons of the kingdom are to enter into the New covenant for forgiveness of their sins, which is the sole purpose of the New covanant, it doesn't include the promise of the heavenly life in Christ's heavenly Kingdom.
The heavenly life in the kingdom of heaven was given to his chosen disciples by promise.



The New covenant

It is for the forgiveness of sin of the world including the sons of the kingdom by virtue of Christ's blood.

Mt 26:28
28 for this means my 'blood of the covenant,' which is to be poured out in behalf of many for forgiveness of sins.

Mr 14:24
24 And he said to them: "This means my 'blood of the covenant,' which is to be poured out in behalf of many.

Lu 22:20
20 Also, the cup in the same way after they had the evening meal, he saying: "This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood, which is to be poured out in YOUR behalf.

Joh 6:54
54 He that feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life, and I shall resurrect him at the last day;

1Co 11:25
25 . . . "This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood. Keep doing this, as often as YOU drink it, in remembrance of me."

Eph 1:7
7 By means of him we have the release by ransom through the blood of that one, yes, the forgiveness of [our] trespasses, according to the riches of his undeserved kindness.

Heb 9:7, 22
7 but into the second [compartment] the high priest alone enters once a year, not without blood, which he offers for himself and for the sins of ignorance of the people.
22 Yes, nearly all things are cleansed with blood according to the Law, and unless blood is poured out no forgiveness takes place.

Heb 10:4, 19-20
4 for it is not possible for the blood of bulls and of goats to take sins away.
19 Therefore, brothers, since we have boldness for the way of entry into the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 which he inaugurated for us as a new and living way through the curtain, that is, his flesh,

1Joh 1:7
7 However, if we are walking in the light as he himself is in the light, we do have a sharing with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.

1Joh 2:2
2 And he is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins, yet not for ours only but also for the whole world's.

Joh 1:29
"See, the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world!

Re 1:5-6
To him that loves us and that loosed us from our sins by means of his own blood- 6 and he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father-yes, to him be the glory and the might forever. Amen.

Re 5:9-10
9 And they sing a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth."

Re 7:14
14 So right away I said to him: "My lord, you are the one that knows." And he said to me: "These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


Notice, both the sons of the kingdom and the world are to receive forgiveness of sins by virtue of the blood of Christ which established the New Covenant, but the heavenly kingdom and priestly position there will be given to the sons of the kingdom only.



The promise of the Kingdom

It is the promise of heavenly life, and for the sons of the kingdom which is called little flock.
It is the based on the first promise in Eden regarding the promised seed who bruise the head of the serpent.

It is rather called "promise" than "covenant."

Both the old covenant and the new covenant are based on the promise of the seed in Eden.

Ge 3:15
15 And I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel."


Heb 8:6
6 But now [Jesus] has obtained a more excellent public service, so that he is also the mediator of a correspondingly better covenant, which has been legally established upon better promises.


Jesus gave the heavenly kingdom which was promised in Eden to his disciples.
They are the ones to follow Jesus into heaven.


Lu 12:32
32 "Have no fear, little flock, because YOUR Father has approved of giving YOU the kingdom.

Lu 22:29-30
29 So, I'm giving this appointment (promise) to you
(As my Father has given the appointment to me)
To [be over] a Kingdom.

30 'In my Kingdom, you'll eat and drink at my table,
And you will sit upon thrones,
Where you'll judge the twelve tribes of IsraEl.

(the twelve tribes of IsraEl represents whole world. It is written at 1Co 6:2 which says "2 Or do YOU not know that the holy ones will judge the world?" And Revelation says 144000 is taken from the twelve tribes of Israel which means every tribe, tongue, and nation.)

Joh 14:1-3
"Do not let YOUR hearts be troubled. Exercise faith in God, exercise faith also in me. 2 In the house of my Father there are many abodes. Otherwise, I would have told YOU, because I am going my way to prepare a place for YOU. 3 Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for YOU, I am coming again and will receive YOU home to myself, that where I am YOU also may be.


To sum up, the New covenant is for forgiveness of sins of all Adam's offsprings, on the other hand the promise of the kingdom is for the little flock, kingdom heirs, the sons of the kingdom which is the invitation to the heavenly hope.




Judgment, When?

Lu 22:29-30
29 So, I'm giving this appointment (promise) to you
(As my Father has given the appointment to me)
To [be over] a Kingdom.

30 'In my Kingdom, you'll eat and drink at my table,
And you will sit upon thrones,
Where you'll judge the twelve tribes of IsraEl.

1Co 6:2
2 Or do YOU not know that the holy ones will judge the world?


Re 20:4
4 And I saw thrones, and there were those who sat down on them, and power of judging was given them. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed with the ax for the witness they bore to Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had worshiped neither the wild beast nor its image and who had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years.


These scriptures tell that the judgment by Christ and his associate king-priests will begin in Christ thousand reign era which is still in the future.

We are still waiting for the Christ's return to start executing judgment upon the Satan's world and to usher the Christ's thousand year reign, the times of restoration of all things.  

Ac 3:20-21
20 . . . the Christ appointed for YOU, Jesus, 21 whom heaven, indeed, must hold within itself until the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke through the mouth of his holy prophets of old time.

Ro 8:19-21
19 For the eager expectation of the creation is waiting for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will but through him that subjected it, on the basis of hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God.


We are still waiting for Christ's coming and being taken along from the earth into heaven to join him to begin the times of restoration of all things.

Mt 24:42
42 Keep on the watch, therefore, because YOU do not know on what day YOUR Lord is coming.

Mt 25:13
13 "Keep on the watch, therefore, because YOU know neither the day nor the hour.

Mr 13:35, 37
35 Therefore keep on the watch, for YOU do not know when the master of the house is coming, whether late in the day or at midnight or at cockcrowing or early in the morning;
37 But what I say to YOU I say to all, Keep on the watch."

1Co 15:51-52
51 Look! I tell YOU a sacred secret: We shall not all fall asleep [in death], but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, during the last trumpet (on Christ's arrival with mighty angels). For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Th 4:15-17
15 For this is what we tell YOU by Jehovah's word, that we the living who survive to the coming of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep [in death]; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel's voice and with God's trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with [the] Lord.

Mt 24:30-31, 40-42
30 And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send forth his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.

40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken along and the other be abandoned; 41 two women will be grinding at the hand mill: one will be taken along and the other be abandoned. 42 Keep on the watch, therefore, because YOU do not know on what day YOUR Lord is coming.

Re 22:20
20 "He that bears witness of these things says, 'Yes; I am coming quickly.'"
"Amen! Come, Lord Jesus."


These scriptures tell me that our Lord has not yet arrived.
For this reason, his thousand years reign, the times of restoration of all things is still in the future.



Judgment upon Satan

It has already been done in the first century when Jesus was on earth and conquered him.
Since then, Satan has been waiting for the execution of the sentence or adverse judgment.

Joh 12:31
31 Now there is a judging of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.

Joh 14:40
30 I shall not speak much with YOU anymore, for the ruler of the world is coming. And he has no hold on me,

Joh 16:33
33 I have said these things to YOU that by means of me YOU may have peace. In the world YOU are having tribulation, but take courage! I have conquered the world."

Lu 10:17-19
17 Then the seventy returned with joy, saying: "Lord, even the demons are made subject to us by the use of your name."
18 At that he said to them: "I began to behold Satan already fallen like lightning from heaven. 19 Look! I have given YOU the authority to trample underfoot serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will by any means do YOU hurt.

2Pe 2:4
4 Certainly if God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned, but, by throwing them into Tar′ta·rus, delivered them to pits of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment;

Jas 2:19
19 You believe there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder.

Heb 10:27
27 but [there is] a certain fearful expectation of judgment and [there is] a fiery jealousy that is going to consume those in opposition.

Mt 8:29
29 And, look! they screamed, saying: "What have we to do with you, Son of God? Did you come here to torment us before the appointed time?"

Lu 8:31
31 And they kept entreating him not to order them to go away into the abyss.


Things which will occur in the future

Re 12:7-9
7 And war broke out in heaven: Mi′cha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.

Re 20:1-3, 7-10
1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven with the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he seized the dragon, the original serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 And he hurled him into the abyss and shut [it] and sealed [it] over him, that he might not mislead the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After these things he must be let loose for a little while.

7 Now as soon as the thousand years have been ended, Satan will be let loose out of his prison, 8 and he will go out to mislead those nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Ma′gog, to gather them together for the war. The number of these is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they advanced over the breadth of the earth and encircled the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city. But fire came down out of heaven and devoured them. 10 And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet [already were]; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


These two events are the period from the beginning to the completion of the conquest against Satan's dominion.
It would be almost thousand years period, so called Lord's day which the Revelation deals with.
And I think that the Lord's day is about to happen now, so that I expect to see the beginning of the conquest by our Lord hopefully in my life time.

Re 12 is the start of the conquest and Re 20 is the end of the conquest.

Re 6:1-2
1 I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures say with a voice as of thunder: "Come!" 2 And I saw, and, look! a white horse; and the one seated upon it had a bow; and a crown was given him, and he went forth conquering and to complete his conquest.


The war in the heaven in Re 12 will bring the earth into the hour of test leading to Armageddon, then Christ's thousand year era.

Re 3:10-11
10 Because you kept the word about my endurance, I will also keep you from the hour of test, which is to come upon the whole inhabited earth, to put a test upon those dwelling on the earth. 11 I am coming quickly. Keep on holding fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.

Re 16:14-16
14 They are, in fact, expressions inspired by demons and perform signs, and they go forth to the kings of the entire inhabited earth, to gather them together to the war of the great day of God the Almighty.
15 "Look! I am coming as a thief. Happy is the one that stays awake and keeps his outer garments, that he may not walk naked and people look upon his shamefulness."
16 And they gathered them together to the place that is called in Hebrew Har-Ma·ged′on.

2Pe 3:10-14
10 Yet Jehovah's day will come as a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a hissing noise, but the elements being intensely hot will be dissolved, and earth and the works in it will be discovered.
11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of persons ought YOU to be in holy acts of conduct and deeds of godly devotion, 12 awaiting and keeping close in mind the coming of the day of Jehovah, through which [the] heavens being on fire will be dissolved and [the] elements being intensely hot will melt! 13 But there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell.
14 Hence, beloved ones, since YOU are awaiting these things, do YOUR utmost to be found finally by him spotless and unblemished and in peace.


We are still awaiting the fulfillment of the first phase of the conquest by the returned Christ to happen.

So, the Christ's thousand years reign hasn't yet begun.
The times of restoration of all things hasn't yet started.
The first resurrection for the sons of the kingdom hasn't yet begun.

All these events are still in the future.




Have a nice day, sister.

satoshi in okinawa

see ya image  

Last Edited By: okinawa Feb 5 14 12:41 AM. Edited 4 times.

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#5 [url]

Feb 2 14 7:05 AM

Dear Okinawa,
Thank you for all your work. All the scriptures you cite are of course, true. 
I would just like to say, that it is not the detail of the relationship between covenant and kingdom that changes when Christ's kingdom takes place.
All your facts are true, but it is the way in which these facts are put together that creates the one true understanding of Christ's time-limited kingdom with a specific purpose;
and God's kingdom (which arrives in the day of Yhwh) which once established through the removal of Christ's enemies; will last forever.
That kingdom of God is indeed future.
God's universal rule never stopped. But when Satan gained humanity and all that is in subjection to it, God was no longer the Sovereign of everything.
This would be corrected through Christ and his co-rulers. That growing administration would gather together all lovers of truth before Satan's world expires, for the purpose of
separating them from the unworthy to save them for life eternal.
Once all enemies of truth are made a footstool for Christ (through Christ's thousand year kingdom), God will then rule again over everything.

I know how the difference between covenant and kingdom has created a basis for the objection of some concepts. Yet some truths remain, as scripture itself directs.
Each detail required to construct truth has a scripture to clarify it. Those truths can be assembled into a clear understanding, outside the objections created by a limited perspective and it's objections.

 When a promise is made, it is a covenant. Such promises are binding through blood.
We are children of promise, while we are children of a covenant.
Please read Gal.4:24,26,28. Although different words are used here (covenant/mother/promise) to describe the same thing (covenant, promise)
they are the same thing (Gal.3:29; Gen.17:1-8).
Although two different words are used to describe the same thing, it does not mean that it must be two different things.
The two words are used in order to impart more description and understanding of that promise/covenant, to which the sealed have become a part.
    I may be described as both old, and as quiet. This does not mean that I am two people.
The very promise/covenant mentioned in Galatians, is the kingdom in heaven, the Holy City New Jerusalem, to which the faithful belong and become when sealed.
Please consider what Gal.4:24,26,28 reveals about the relationship between covenant and promise, and the fact that they are the same thing,
(as well as Gen.17:2; compared to Gal.3:29)
even though these two descriptive words are used to widen our understanding of that single gift.

I will write more about what you have written when I am able.
Thank you again,
Pearl

Last Edited By: Pearl Doxsey Feb 2 14 7:16 AM. Edited 3 times.

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#6 [url]

Feb 2 14 9:43 AM

Hello brother Satoshi,
thank you for including scriptures...scriptures are never wrong....
...we have all been so indoctrinated or mislead by WT teachings, that it can be confusing at times...
...i think of how  Rev 8 speaks of a third of the waters (truth) being turned into death dealing bitter waters (lies).....


10      The third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star, blazing like a torch, fell from the sky on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water—    11    the name of the star is Wormwood.    A third of the waters turned bitter, and many people died from the waters that had become bitter.

...with that much adulteration of truth, it can be difficult to separate out the truth from the strongly entrenched lies...we all are dealing with this struggle...only prayer for Holy Spirit can open up our minds to the unseen meanings in the scriptures...even Jesus' own Apostles didn't grasp the meanings...Jesus had to explain it to them...
(Mark 8:14-21)

14 The disciples had forgotten to bring bread, except for one loaf they had with them in the boat. 15 “Be careful,” Jesus warned them. “Watch out for the yeast of the Pharisees and that of Herod.”
16 They discussed this with one another and said, “It is because we have no bread.”
17 Aware of their discussion, Jesus asked them: “Why are you talking about having no bread? Do you still not see or understand? Are your hearts hardened?q 18 Do you have eyes but fail to see, and ears but fail to hear? And don’t you remember?
21 He said to them, “Do you still not understand?”

so there is a refinement (skimming off the dross as in the refining of gold) going on with all of us....much that we learned from WT still has us confused,,,we have read scriptures many times under WT guidance.... even Jesus own disciples had their scriptures....however notice what he did for them so as to improve their understanding of sciptures that they had already been aware of, but did not grasp...(Luke 24:13-32)...read the account...
...and notice this part:

30 When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. 31 Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight. 32 They asked each other, “Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?

this refinement is what has been going on ....understanding that Revelation was given in signs...and really accepting Jesus' saying that helps to not miss the symbolic meanings...we must pray to the Father and keep asking in Jesus' name...if truth is what we want he will give it to us.
I used to believe as the WT taught...that the 1000 yrs was after Satan was restrained in an Abyss...
...let Jesus open up our minds to the symbolic meanings....1000 yr reign of Christ ruling among his enemies, (his brothers ruling with him) subduing his enemies death dealing lies one at a time...Satan being restrained (bound) in an Abyss for 1000 yrs...unable to blind Jesus faithful brothers from learning and speaking truth...symbolic...and at the same time... he is not Abyssed or hindered from misleading those unfaithful ones not remaing in union with Jesus....yes there is a war going on right now for a symbolic 1000 yrs...many battles (as it is the case in all wars) have been fought in this war...I believe it will all come to a grand conclusion in the final battle of the great day of God Almighty (Rev 16:14,16)  Satan has been waging war with Jesus followers and currently he is waging war with the remaining ones ...(Rev 12:7, 17)


7  Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.  
(What angel...messengers...along with "Michael"  (Rev 3:12)... battle with and conquer Satan?
 (Rev 12:10, 11) (1 John 2:14) (Rom 16:20) ( Gen 3:15)


8  But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven.

9  The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil,

17  Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

 he is gathering his followers together to the place of the final decision (Rev 16:16)...Armageddon... ...the final battle is what we may be close to, if it has not already been under way.

When all the enemies have been subdued and brought to nothing...it is over...why would God let us have a... pseudo-paradise... for a 1000 yr period, only to let Satan have a go at it again...and have so many people (as the sands of the sea) follow him again?
Is that really paradise?   living for a 1000 yrs with people who still really desire bad things?  I don't think so.   God reads hearts...he already knows who HE will bring back inot the real paradise...God's Kingdom...
WE have been so infuenced with WT thinking....remember how they say that we have a spiritual paradise within the organization right now?...and yet we know what a lie that is....pedophiles among us being sheltered to preserve an "image" , rapists also, wife beaters, and so much more hypocrisy there...a form of Godly devotion...but proving over and over again,,,false to it's power.
Revelation is symbolic...Jesus can , by means of Holy Spirit, "open up our minds" to the meanings of the scriptures,,,this is an ongoing process as we are all refined by means of (fire)...God's word.     

Check out the Armaggedon article again...but  most of alll pray for Holy Spirit .

Be well my brother,

Agape, Obadiah


 

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#7 [url]

Feb 2 14 10:12 AM

I forgot to mention the similarity between  Rev  20      and  Rev 12  and  Rev  16
    
Rev 20
Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.


Rev 16
13 Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.

15 “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

16 Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.


Rev 20
9  They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves.   

and   Rev  12: 
17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.


Agape ,
 obe
 

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#8 [url]

Feb 3 14 5:10 AM

1000 years reign is still in the future

Hi sis. Pearl and bro. Obadiah


Thank you for your input.


First I agree to what you wrote here.

When a promise is made, it is a covenant. Such promises are binding through blood.
We are children of promise, while we are children of a covenant.
Please read Gal.4:24,26,28. Although different words are used here (covenant/mother/promise) to describe the same thing (covenant, promise)
they are the same thing (Gal.3:29; Gen.17:1-8).
Although two different words are used to describe the same thing, it does not mean that it must be two different things.
The two words are used in order to impart more description and understanding of that promise/covenant, to which the sealed have become a part.


I also view that promise, oath, covenant are all the same as you describe.
These terms are to reinforce the surety of God's will.
This is not a point of mine.

The oath and the covenant are based on the promise of God who can't lie as show at Heb 8:6 as I quoted above.

The point I stressed is that the New covenant is for the forgiveness of the sin of the the world including the sons of the kingdom, this is the main article of the New covenant. But kingdom promise or covenant is for only the sons of the kingdom to become the promised heir of the kingdom of heaven and priest, among Adam's offspring only to them the heavenly hope was given. In short, the New covenant is for the world, whereas the promise of the kingdom is only for the sons of the kingdom to whom the heavenly hope is given. By using these two words respectively, we can clarify the point easily.


Next the timing of the each event

By means of the sinless death of Christ, he was rewarded to sit the right hand of God's throne. The crown was given to the resurrected Christ.

His rule as king over the sons of the kingdom begun.
But it was necessary for him to wait until he was allowed to start executing judgment upon Satan's world.

This will be the time of Christ's return with heavenly army.
This is the time of Christ's coming back which the world can see or recognize him coming back.

It has not occurred yet.

Heb 10:12-13
12 But this [man] offered one sacrifice for sins perpetually and sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from then on awaiting until his enemies should be placed as a stool for his feet.

1Pe 3:22
22 He is at God's right hand, for he went his way to heaven; and angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him.

Eph 1:20-21
20 with which he has operated in the case of the Christ when he raised him up from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name named, not only in this system of things, but also in that to come. (There is a system that yet come, it is still in the future)

Mt 28:18
18 And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: "All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.

Col 1:13
13 He delivered us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of his love,

Heb 2:7-9
7 You made him a little lower than angels; with glory and honor you crowned him, and appointed him over the works of your hands. 8 All things you subjected under his feet." For in that he subjected all things to him [God] left nothing that is not subject to him. Now, though, we do not yet see all things in subjection to him; 9 but we behold Jesus, who has been made a little lower than angels, crowned with glory and honor for having suffered death, that he by God's undeserved kindness might taste death for every [man].

Da 7:13-14
13 "I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see there! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. 14 And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin.


Ps 110:1-2
1 The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is:
"Sit at my right hand
Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet
."
2 The rod of your strength Jehovah will send out of Zion, [saying:]
"Go subduing in the midst of your enemies."


The time to go subduing in the midst of his enemies

It is the time of Christ's coming back for which the sons of the kingdom in all ages have been waiting.

It is the time of revelation of Christ.
It is the beginning of the conquest against Satan's world.
It is the start of the Lord's Day.
It is the time for us to see the fulfillment of the prophecies of the Revelation.

It has not occurred yet.

We all are waiting for our Lord's return, his revelation of coming back with heavenly army to execute judgment upon Satan's world, in other words hearing the commanding call of God  to our Lord saying "Go subduing in the midst of your enemies."

1Co 1:7-8
7 . . . while YOU are eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ. 8 He will also make YOU firm to the end, that YOU may be open to no accusation in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Php 3:20-21
20 As for us, our citizenship exists in the heavens, from which place also we are eagerly waiting for a savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will refashion our humiliated body to be conformed to his glorious body according to the operation of the power that he has, even to subject all things to himself.

1Co 15:51-53
51 Look! I tell YOU a sacred secret: We shall not all fall asleep [in death], but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality.

Jas 5:7-8
7 Exercise patience, therefore, brothers, until the coming of the Lord. Look! The farmer keeps waiting for the precious fruit of the earth, exercising patience over it until he gets the early rain and the late rain. 8 YOU too exercise patience; make YOUR hearts firm, because the coming of the Lord has drawn close.

2Pe 3:11-14
11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of persons ought YOU to be in holy acts of conduct and deeds of godly devotion, 12 awaiting and keeping close in mind the coming of the day of Jehovah, through which [the] heavens being on fire will be dissolved and [the] elements being intensely hot will melt! 13 But there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell.
14 Hence, beloved ones, since YOU are awaiting these things, do YOUR utmost to be found finally by him spotless and unblemished and in peace.

 
All the sons of the kingdom in any age have been waiting for the coming of Christ Jesus.
It is the time of the first resurrection.
It is the time of beginning of the conquest.

It has not occurred yet.

Christ Jesus and all the sons of the kingdom are still waiting for the commanding call of God saying "Go subduing in the midst of your enemies."


The things which will occur in near future

The things written in Revelation will fulfilled in the future.
The prophecy of the Revelation has not occurred yet, unlike the WTS is deceptively announcing it has been fulfilling now for their pseudo theocracy.

Re 6:1-2
1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures say with a voice as of thunder: "Come!" 2 And I saw, and, look! a white horse; and the one seated upon it had a bow; and a crown was given him, and he went forth conquering and to complete his conquest.

Re 12:7-9
7 And war broke out in heaven: Mi′cha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.


The prophecies in the scroll with seven seals have not concurred yet.
It will start fulfilling on the war in the heaven.
It is the beginning of the Lord's Day.
Many sons of the kingdom are still in the Hades, they have not received the first resurrection yet, so that none of the sons of the kingdom received the authority of judging, it is still in the future.

Re 6:9-11
9 And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness work that they used to have. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying: "Until when, Sovereign Lord holy and true, are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood upon those who dwell on the earth?" 11 And a white robe was given to each of them; and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled also of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they also had been.

Re 11:18
18 But the nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came, and the appointed time for the dead to be judged, and to give [their] reward to your slaves the prophets and to the holy ones and to those fearing your name, the small and the great, and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth."

Re 14:13
13 And I heard a voice out of heaven say: "Write: Happy are the dead who die in union with [the] Lord from this time onward. Yes, says the spirit, let them rest from their labors, for the things they did go right with them."

Re 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and there were those who sat down on them, and power of judging was given them. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed with the ax for the witness they bore to Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had worshiped neither the wild beast nor its image and who had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years.
5 . . . This is the first resurrection. 6 Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.


The appointed time for the first resurrection and the thousand year reign of judging has not yet begun.


see ya image

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#9 [url]

Feb 3 14 10:02 AM

greetings all,

perhaps , we should consider these things:
Jesus said what ever we did to the least of his brothers, we did to him...this applies especially now in each ones lifetime.
some have entertained angels without even being aware of it...what sort of a test is it if we are aware that we are being observed?...
isn't it more of a test when we do what is right even under the most trying circumstances? ...even people of the nations have proved to have God's laws written on their hearts,,,though they themselves did not have the laws given to them...God can read their hearts...(Nazi soldiers who committed atrocities were not excused simply because they were followig orders...even humans know that there is a right and wrong...if they had God's laws in their hearts...the  law of LOVE most of all...they would NOT have done those horrible things)

Job was imperfect...he passed his test...many other Christians kept their integrity under severe tests in this world controlled by Satan...despite being imperfect...NOW is the time of salvation...as the scriptures say...NOW is the acceptable time...

Many say...(the JWs, as well as other Christian religions believe this)...that AFTER Armageddon...AFTER the Great day of God Almighty...AFTER his final judgement has been given ....that then Satan gets restrained in the Abyss, only to be let out again for another test and another judgement....so i guess if this is what you believe then you are not aone...


the thing to consider is that you should live your life NOW as if this is your judgement day...NOW is the day of salvation..for you....
(God judges those on the outside...he reads  their hearts)...don't assume that you or i will have a thousand years without Satan;s direct influence , to be tested again...we are being tested right NOW...as many faithful Christians have gone through over the centuries....
don't you think that if they and we pass this test now, that it is enough?  or does Christ's ransom sacrifice not apply?...Christ died for us while we were yet sinners...do we get the free gift of life by earning it in the future 1000 yrs.
so then...let God be found true...but don't assume that when Jesus sits down and separates sheep from goats... based on how they treated his brothers ...that it will be during...or  AFTER... some future 1000 yrs when we live in a "paradise" and see the "camp of the holy ones"  being surrounded by Satan's hordes (who are also living with us in this "pseudo-paradise") (and everyone present knowing that those in this "camp" are Jesus' brothers)  

REMEMBER  those that did things to Jesus' brother did NOT know it while they were doing it...when the least of his bothers were hungry...they fed them, thirsty,,,they gave them something to drink, a stranger...they invited them in, needed clothes...they clothed them...sick and they looked after them....in prison and they came to visit them

...(when did we do these things they asked Jesus?)  was it during this assumed 1000 yr reign of Christ and his bothers during a "pseudo-paradise where everything is perfect, and going well..while Satan waits it out for that same 1000 yrs?   or is it going on right NOW....

i can only lead you to water , i cannot make you drink....Revelation is SYMBOLIC   that is how Jesus presented it....
it is there that the 1000 yr reign, and Satan's 1000 yr restraint in an Abyss is mentioned...

Matt 25: 31-45


31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’


...

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#10 [url]

Feb 4 14 2:51 AM

Blessing in the future

Hi all



We were born in Satan's world.
What is significance of this?
It is we are involved in the enmity between Gad and Satan, truth and lie.
There is no rest in the battle against Satan and against our own sin.

But we will be helped to win the battle thanks to the promised seed who already conquered the world.

Satan is forced to fight a losing battle.
There is no chance for him to become a victor.

Ge 3:15
15 And I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel."

What Satan can do is to bruise us only in our heel.
There is no fatal damages incurred by his evil plot.
He is used by God to reveal the things in one's heart, to which the one attracted, the lie or  the truth.


Lu 12:4
4 Moreover, I say to YOU, my friends, Do not fear those who kill the body and after this are not able to do anything more.

2Th 2:9-12
9 But the lawless one's presence is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and portents 10 and with every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth that they might be saved. 11 So that is why God lets an operation of error go to them, that they may get to believing the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.


What does it mean to be Christian?

Mt 16:24-27
24 Then Jesus said to his disciples: "If anyone wants to come after me, let him disown himself and pick up his torture stake and continually follow me. 25 For whoever wants to save his soul will lose it; but whoever loses his soul for my sake will find it. 26 For what benefit will it be to a man if he gains the whole world but forfeits his soul? or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 27 For the Son of man is destined to come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he will recompense each one according to his behavior.

Mr 8:34-38
34 He now called the crowd to him with his disciples and said to them: "If anyone wants to come after me, let him disown himself and pick up his torture stake and follow me continually. 35 For whoever wants to save his soul will lose it; but whoever loses his soul for the sake of me and the good news will save it. 36 Really, of what benefit is it for a man to gain the whole world and to forfeit his soul? 37 What, really, would a man give in exchange for his soul? 38 For whoever becomes ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of man will also be ashamed of him when he arrives in the glory of his Father with the holy angels."

Lu 9:23-26
23 Then he went on to say to all: "If anyone wants to come after me, let him disown himself and pick up his torture stake day after day and follow me continually. 24 For whoever wants to save his soul will lose it; but whoever loses his soul for my sake is the one that will save it. 25 Really, what does a man benefit himself if he gains the whole world but loses his own self or suffers damage? 26 For whoever becomes ashamed of me and of my words, the Son of man will be ashamed of this one when he arrives in his glory and that of the Father and of the holy angels.


Understand, that every sons of the kingdom in each age is to be under enmity from Satan, and they lose their soul for the sake of the truth, and they are to be rewarded when Christ arrives.

Christ has not yet arrived with the reward of the first resurrection for the sons of the kingdom.
His coming is still in the future.
All the sons of the kingdom have still been waiting for their Lord's arrival, in Hades or being alive.

We are still praying, let your kingdom come!
We still have a wrestling against wicked spirit forces in heavenly places.
It implies Satan and demons are still in heaven, they have not been hurled from the heaven yet.  
But their enmity against the sons of the kingdom in any age has not changed from the beginning throughout the centuries, so that majority of the sons of the kingdom were executed with ax, so to speak.
The war in heaven which is the beginning of the conquest of Satan's dominion by our Lord is still in the future.
It has not happened yet.
The Lord's Day has not come yet.

The scroll with seven seals has not started opening yet.
Satan and demons are still in the heaven.
They hasn't been hurled down to the earth, nor been hurled into the abyss yet.
Christ's thousand years reign is still in the future.


Mt 6:9-13
9 "YOU must pray, then, this way:
"'Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified. 10 Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth. 11 Give us today our bread for this day; 12 and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13 And do not bring us into temptation, but deliver us from the wicked one.'

Eph 6:12
12 because we have a wrestling, not against blood and flesh, but against the governments, against the authorities, against the world rulers of this darkness, against the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places. (They are still in heaven.)

Lu 22:31
31 "Simon, Simon, look! Satan has demanded to have YOU men to sift YOU as wheat.

Joh 16:33
33 . . . In the world YOU are having tribulation, but take courage! I have conquered the world.

Joh 15:20
20 . . . A slave is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will persecute YOU also;

2Ti 3:12
12 In fact, all those desiring to live with godly devotion in association with Christ Jesus will also be persecuted.

The same is true of the sons of the kingdom in the Lord's Day.

Re 2:10
10 Do not be afraid of the things you are about to suffer. Look! The Devil will keep on throwing some of YOU into prison that YOU may be fully put to the test, and that YOU may have tribulation ten days. Prove yourself faithful even to death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Re 12:11
11 And they (the sons of the kingdom) conquered him (Satan) because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death.


Once the Lord's Day gets started with the war in heaven, a great war, famine, and lots of casualties on the earth will follow, then the beast worship will be imposed upon everybody on the earth. It means the endurance on the part of sons of the kingdom. People have to chose which to worship, the wild beast authorized by Satan or the One created all things.

This is what will happen in the future, according to the Revelation.

Re 6:1-17
1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures say with a voice as of thunder: "Come!" 2 And I saw, and, look! a white horse; and the one seated upon it had a bow; and a crown was given him, and he went forth conquering and to complete his conquest.

3 And when he opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say: "Come!" 4 And another came forth, a fiery-colored horse; and to the one seated upon it there was granted to take peace away from the earth so that they should slaughter one another; and a great sword was given him.
5 And when he opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say: "Come!" And I saw, and, look! a black horse; and the one seated upon it had a pair of scales in his hand. 6 And I heard a voice as if in the midst of the four living creatures say: "A quart of wheat for a de·nar′i·us, and three quarts of barley for a de·nar′i·us; and do not harm the olive oil and the wine."

7 And when he opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say: "Come!" 8 And I saw, and, look! a pale horse; and the one seated upon it had the name Death. And Ha′des was closely following him. And authority was given them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with a long sword and with food shortage and with deadly plague and by the wild beasts of the earth.

9 And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness work that they used to have. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying: "Until when, Sovereign Lord holy and true, are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood upon those who dwell on the earth?" 11 And a white robe was given to each of them; and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled also of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they also had been.
12 And I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and a great earthquake occurred; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the entire moon became as blood, 13 and the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as when a fig tree shaken by a high wind casts its unripe figs. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and [every] island were removed from their places. 15 And the kings of the earth and the top-ranking ones and the military commanders and the rich and the strong ones and every slave and [every] free person hid themselves in the caves and in the rock-masses of the mountains. 16 And they keep saying to the mountains and to the rock-masses: "Fall over us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17 because the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"


When he opened the seventh seal, (Re chp 8-)

Satan gives the authority to the wild beast and the beast will be worshiped by all.
The wild beast battles with the sons of the kingdom and conquers them in a sense.
At the same time, God's worship is also strongly promoted by angels.
People have to chose which to worship, the wild beast or God.

All the sons of the kingdom are called to get out of the Babylon the great.
Satan's entire world will battle with God's heavenly army at the Armageddon.
At that time Christ will be revealed to judge the world.
The remained sons of the kingdom will be taken along into heaven.
The meek ones of the nations who refused the beast worship will survive the great tribulation.
The seeds of the Satan will be defeated.

Then Satan and demons are hurled into the abyss for thousand years.
Christ's thousand years reign begins to undo the damages brought by Satan's works.


Re 13:4, 7-10
4 And they worshiped the dragon because it gave the authority to the wild beast, and they worshiped the wild beast with the words: "Who is like the wild beast, and who can do battle with it?"

7 And there was granted it to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and authority was given it over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. 8 And all those who dwell on the earth will worship it; the name of not one of them stands written in the scroll of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered, from the founding of the world.

9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear. 10 If anyone [is meant] for captivity, he goes away into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. Here is where it means the endurance and faith of the holy ones.

Re 14:6-7
6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, and he had everlasting good news to declare as glad tidings to those who dwell on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people, 7 saying in a loud voice: "FEAR God and give him glory, because the hour of the judgment by him has arrived, and so worship the One who made the heaven and the earth and sea and fountains of waters."

Re 18:4
4 And I heard another voice out of heaven say: "Get out of her, my people, if YOU do not want to share with her in her sins, and if YOU do not want to receive part of her plagues.

Re 16:14-16
14 They are, in fact, expressions inspired by demons and perform signs, and they go forth to the kings of the entire inhabited earth, to gather them together to the war of the great day of God the Almighty.

15 "Look! I am coming as a thief. Happy is the one that stays awake and keeps his outer garments, that he may not walk naked and people look upon his shamefulness."

16 And they gathered them together to the place that is called in Hebrew Har-Ma·ged′on.

Mt 24:29-31, 40-42
29 ". . . after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send forth his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.

40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken along and the other be abandoned; 41 two women will be grinding at the hand mill: one will be taken along and the other be abandoned. 42 Keep on the watch, therefore, because YOU do not know on what day YOUR Lord is coming.


Mt 25:31-32
31 "When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. 32 And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left.

Re 7:14
14 . . . And he said to me: "These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation,
 

Re 19:17-18
17 I saw also an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice and said to all the birds that fly in midheaven: "Come here, be gathered together to the great evening meal of God, 18 that YOU may eat the fleshy parts of kings and the fleshy parts of military commanders and the fleshy parts of strong men and the fleshy parts of horses and of those seated upon them, and the fleshy parts of all, of freemen as well as of slaves and of small ones and great."

Re 20:1-3
1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven with the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he seized the dragon, the original serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 And he hurled him into the abyss and shut [it] and sealed [it] over him, that he might not mislead the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After these things he must be let loose for a little while. (Notice it is nations, not the sons of the kigdom that Satan will be forced not to mislead.)


During the Christ's thousand years reign, all damages by Satan's rebellion will be undone.

Re 21:1-7
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more. 2 I saw also the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: "Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away."

5 And the One seated on the throne said: "Look! I am making all things new." Also, he says: "Write, because these words are faithful and true." 6 And he said to me: "They have come to pass! I am the Al′pha and the O·me′ga, the beginning and the end. To anyone thirsting I will give from the fountain of the water of life free. 7 Anyone conquering will inherit these things, and I shall be his God and he will be my son.


The Lord's Day has not yet come.
The blessing is still in the future.


Re 22:20
20 "He that bears witness of these things says, 'Yes; I am coming quickly.'"
"Amen! Come, Lord Jesus."


satoshi in okinawa

see ya image

Last Edited By: okinawa Feb 4 14 3:42 AM. Edited 1 time.

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Feb 4 14 6:58 AM

I thought it was beneficial to respond to this subject, however, Pearl has stated that she would prefer this forum not to be used as the other ones are.   With this in mind, she would like me not to keep responding to what seems to be going in circles.  Jesus spoke in ...parables...he gave Revelation in signs ...we were born as physical men in a physical world, so it will be difficult without help from Holy Spirit , to see beyond the parables...even his own Apostles had trouble with that.
  We really have to stop thinking like physical men....the WT  taught us that the 1000 yr reign and Satan's abyssing has not occured yet...if we choose to still believe this then it is a choice...If it is not true, then Satan is still able to deceive us, and all the anointed are at risk for not seeing what is already upon them.
Pearl has requested that questons or discussions of this nature be addressed to her on her 4woman site.  I will therefore not get involved in anymore "debates" which  do not promote peace and comfort.   This is the purpose of this site.

Agape, Obe

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